Le "Big-Bang" de 4d-forum...

Voici le "thread" des messages qui ont donner l'idée de créer 4d-forum.


Date: 13 May 1996 19:49:50 -0500

From: sparent@sympatico.ca (Sylvain Parent)
Subject: Programmez-vous francais ?
 
Bonjour,
 
Es-ce que quelqu'un connait un groupe de discussion sur 4D, du type de
celui-ci, mais en fran#231#ais.  Drole de situation j'ai choisi un logiciel
francais pour pouvoir avoir des info dans la langue de Moliere mais je
trouve plus et plus rapidement dans celle de Shakespeare.
 
Ou est l'erreur?
 
Je suis int#233#ress#233# par toute source d'information en francais sur 4D.
 
Merci.
 
================================================================
 ^ ^       Et j'ai vu quelquefois ce que l'homme a cru voir!
 @ @                                         Arthur Rimbaud
 \_/
===============================================================

Date: 13 May 1996 20:34:26 -0500 From:
Mike Hennahane <mhennahane@fourcc.com> Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais ?   At 8:24 PM -0400 5/13/96, Sylvain Parent wrote:   >Es-ce que quelqu'un connait un groupe de discussion sur 4D, du type de >celui-ci, mais en fran#231#ais. Drole de situation j'ai choisi un logiciel >francais pour pouvoir avoir des info dans la langue de Moliere mais je >trouve plus et plus rapidement dans celle de Shakespeare.   Definitely ironic... There are no French mailing lists, to my knowledge. My guess is that, like it or not, English is the language that intersects the majority of 4D users. The score so far: Shakespeare 1, Moliere 0...   >Je suis int#233#ress#233# par toute source d'information en francais sur 4D.   I don't know of any besides <http://www.aci.fr/>. Maybe there are some USENET groups on Calvacom; or perhaps you could start a group in French.   - --- Mike Hennahane +1 415 323 4444 tel 4th Connection Consulting, Inc. +1 415 487 1654 fax mhennahane@fourcc.com
Date: 14 May 1996 19:22:02 -0500 From: bfevat@pacwan.mm-soft.fr (
Bernard Fevat) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais ?   >Est-ce que quelqu'un connait un groupe de discussion sur 4D, du type de >celui-ci, mais en francais.   Il y en a un sur Compuserve, il y a aussi ACIOnLine et d'autres BBS, mais tous ceux que je connais sont beaucoup plus pauvres que celui-ci.   Bernard Fevat
Date: 15 May 1996 17:51:00 -0500 From:
Alain Vankerckhoven <100416.1665@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Programmez-vous francais   sp > Es-ce que quelqu'un connait un groupe de discussion sur 4D, du type sp > de celui-ci, mais en fran#231#ais. Drole de situation j'ai choisi sp > un logiciel francais pour pouvoir avoir des info dans la langue de sp > Moliere mais je trouve plus et plus rapidement dans celle de sp > Shakespeare.   Rien a ma connaissance n'existe en francais sur 4D dans les mailing lists, dans les usenets ni sur le web. Vous pouvez bien sur essayer de lancer votre propre mailing list francophone, mais beaucoup de grosses pointures sont deja ici. Apprendre l'anglais est a mon sens la meilleure solution. Le vocabulaire demande n'est pas tres etendu et les anglophones de naissances sont toujours comprehensifs vis a vis des collegues qui font a chaque fois un effort de traduction.   D'autre part, je crois que l'etiquette de 4D-nug n'impose pas l'anglais comme langue vehiculaire et que des contributions peuvent etre postees en francais... au risque bien sur de ne se faire comprendre que d'une minorite.   Nous sommes peut-etre en train de lancer un mouvement formidable ;-)   Good luck!     _Alain_____     Moi, l'opera, je trouve ca chouette. - Al Capone ---------------------------------------------------------------- Alain Van Kerckhoven 100416.1665@compuserve.com Key fingerprint 75 17 B0 ED A5 C6 90 86 1A F3 4D EB CB B0 04 77 ---------------------------------------------------------------- Transmitted with recycled electrons.
Date: 15 May 1996 18:19:55 -0500 From: 4d-admin@fsti.com (Karen R Sabog) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   Messages to the 4D Mailing List should be in English only. Any comments should be emailed privately to me...in English, of course, unless you speak Hawaiian. ;-)   - --Karen, 4D Mailing List Administrator, 4d-admin@fsti.com
Date: 15 May 1996 20:03:33 -0500 From: jonmor@paston.co.uk (John Moore) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   At 7:20 pm 15/5/96, Karen R Sabog wrote:   >Messages to the 4D Mailing List should be in English only. Any >comments should be emailed privately to me...in English, of course, >unless you speak Hawaiian. ;-)   I don't see there's a need to be so hard-line about this. The French speakers who have mastered English are always likely to use it in preference on this list, but it seems a bit harsh to exclude monolingual French speakers when it's a French product which is the whole raison d'etre for the list.   John   ========================================================================== John Moore INTERNET jonmor@paston.co.uk Norwich, UK COMPUSERVE 100015,3060 ==========================================================================
Date: 15 May 1996 20:04:37 -0500 From: jonmor@paston.co.uk (John Moore) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais   At 12:45 pm 15/5/96, Alain Vankerckhoven wrote:   >D'autre part, je crois que l'etiquette de 4D-nug n'impose pas l'anglais comme >langue vehiculaire et que des contributions peuvent etre postees en francais... >au risque bien sur de ne se faire comprendre que d'une minorite. > >Nous sommes peut-etre en train de lancer un mouvement formidable ;-)   There is already a precedent here of another language being used - a group of us use British instead of American, but we seem to be understood. <g>   John   ========================================================================== John Moore INTERNET jonmor@paston.co.uk Norwich, UK COMPUSERVE 100015,3060 ==========================================================================
Date: 15 May 1996 20:44:19 -0500 From: 4d-admin@fsti.com (Karen R Sabog) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   You're incorrect to assume that I am being hard-lined. Preference of language is not the issue. This is an international list where all subscribers must comprehend some level of English. The lowest common denominator prevails.   As the 4D Mailing List Administrator, I will not be too happy about all the bounced mail that gets generated from the systems that cannot handle 8-bit characters every time someone writes in French. Keeping this list in English is also a maintenance issue.   Please read the 4D Mailing List FAQ about only using 7-bit US-ASCII. Your use of 8-bit characters (the "e" with the hat on it in "d'etre") in your last sentence will send a slew of bounced messages my way. :-(   - --Karen, 4D Mailing List Administrator, 4d-admin@fsti.com
Date: 16 May 1996 12:07:52 -0500 From: kmoore@external.umass.edu (Ken Moore) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   At 2:03 AM 5/16/96, John Moore wrote: >At 7:20 pm 15/5/96, Karen R Sabog wrote: > >>Messages to the 4D Mailing List should be in English only. Any >>comments should be emailed privately to me...in English, of course, >>unless you speak Hawaiian. ;-) > >I don't see there's a need to be so hard-line about this. The French >speakers who have mastered English are always likely to use it in >preference on this list, but it seems a bit harsh to exclude monolingual >French speakers when it's a French product which is the whole raison d'etre >for the list. > >John   I have to agree with John. I don't see a reason to exclude people from this list just because they don't speak English. Perhaps a compromise: If posters in French would refrain from using the various special characters, Karen would not have to deal with bounced messages. Does this sound reasonable?   Vive la difference!   Ken Moore | It's a hundred miles to Chicago, we've Project Manager, Info Systems | got a full tank of gas, half a pack Donahue Institute | of cigarettes, it's dark, and we're University of Massachusetts | wearing sunglasses. 413-545-6614 |
Date: 16 May 1996 12:54:12 -0500 From: reh1@cornell.edu (Richard elGuru[tm] Howland-Bolton) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   >At 2:03 AM 5/16/96, John Moore wrote: >>At 7:20 pm 15/5/96, Karen R Sabog wrote: >>>Messages to the 4D Mailing List should be in English only. Any >>>comments should be emailed privately to me...in English, of course, >>>unless you speak Hawaiian. ;-) >>I don't see there's a need to be so hard-line about this. The French >>speakers who have mastered English are always likely to use it in >>preference on this list, but it seems a bit harsh to exclude monolingual >>French speakers when it's a French product which is the whole raison d'etre >>for the list. >>John >I have to agree with John. I don't see a reason to exclude people from >this list just because they don't speak English. Perhaps a compromise: If >posters in French would refrain from using the various special characters, >Karen would not have to deal with bounced messages. Does this sound >reasonable? >Vive la difference! >Ken Moore   But most of us on this list (I suspect) don't have the grasp of the language to understand answers if they were given in French. I think a mono-lingual list is preferable.   "Je suis le tenebreux, le veuf, l'inconsole, le prince d'aquitaine a la tour abolie..." (See what I mean)   rhb     Richard E. Howland-Bolton Cornell University reh1@cornell.edu
Date: 16 May 1996 13:14:25 -0500 From: "Douglas Martin" <d_martin@biomira.com> Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   >>Messages to the 4D Mailing List should be in English only. Any >>comments should be emailed privately to me...in English, of course, >>unless you speak Hawaiian. ;-)   >I don't see there's a need to be so hard-line about this. The French >speakers who have mastered English are always likely to use it in >preference on this list, but it seems a bit harsh to exclude monolingual >French speakers when it's a French product which is the whole raison d'etre >for the list.   I agree. I don't see that any hard and fast "English-only" rule needs to be enforced. If someone posts in French to an English-language list, I hope that that person has the sense to realize that most people will not be able to read the question/comment. If they choose to post in French anyway, I don't see any problem.   My French is a tad rusty, but unless I'm very mistaken, the original poster was asking whether there were any lists or newsgroups in French for 4D. Seems a logical question to ask in French!
Date: 16 May 1996 14:06:17 -0500 From: jonmor@paston.co.uk (John Moore) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais   At 7:26 pm 15/5/96, Kevin Shay wrote:   Well, I can read them, but would have to reply in English (if you want a >reply that comes anywhere close to my intended meaning, that is!).   Same here. I might _think_ I was giving a French speaker a description of how to use pointers effectively in a given situation - whereas what I was in fact saying was something unfortunate about their mother and poultry. <g>   John   ========================================================================== John Moore INTERNET jonmor@paston.co.uk Norwich, UK COMPUSERVE 100015,3060 ==========================================================================
Date: 15 May 1996 22:00:36 -0500 From: Kevin Shay <kevin@natural.com> Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais   At 12:45 PM -0400 5/15/1996, Alain Vankerckhoven wrote: >D'autre part, je crois que l'etiquette de 4D-nug n'impose pas l'anglais comme >langue vehiculaire et que des contributions peuvent etre postees en >francais... >au risque bien sur de ne se faire comprendre que d'une minorite.   Well, I can read them, but would have to reply in English (if you want a reply that comes anywhere close to my intended meaning, that is!). Perhaps someone could volunteer to translate the occasional reply in such cases...   - - --Kevin   Kevin Shay \_ \_ \_ mailto:kevin@natural.com Software Developer \_\_\_ \_ tel (617) 876-7680 x1250 Natural Intelligence, Inc. \_ \__ \_ NYC (212) 354-6964 x1250 http://www.natural.com/ \_ \_ \_ fax (617) 492-7425
Date: 16 May 1996 16:56:20 -0500 From: Ziya Oz <ziyaoz@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais   >There is already a precedent here of another language being used - a group >of us use British instead of American, but we seem to be understood. <g>   Speak for yourself.   Ziya
Date: 16 May 1996 19:16:07 -0500 From: "Malcolm O'Callaghan" <MalcolmO@artnet.net> Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   At 12:08 PM -0600 5/16/96, Douglas Martin wrote:   [le grande SNIP] >I agree. I don't see that any hard and fast "English-only" rule needs to >be enforced.   I agree - look at the success in Canada of having no hard and fast rule...   Cava? ;->   - -mal     - ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Malcolm O'Callaghan, Macintosh Programmer, ModaCAD, Inc., Los Angeles, CA MalcolmO@modacad.com ph: 310/312-9826 x117 fax: 310/444-9577
Date: 16 May 1996 21:40:22 -0500 From: 4d-admin@fsti.com (Karen R Sabog) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   This list will remain in English only, no matter what variant, as long as the point gets across. You ask why?   1) This mailing list was created within the framework that the target audience would be English-speaking or at least comprehend the English language. We need to set some limits to retain our focus.   2) The 4D mailing list administrator needs to ensure that the messages posted to this list are appropriate to this forum (with the help of fellow subscribers, of course). I do not have a multilingual assistant at my side (and nor do most subscribers) to translate every non-English message.   3) As a courtesy to the many international subscribers   a) who joined this list because it is in English b) who only have access to 7-bit mail readers c) whose mail systems are only 7-bit wide   4) As a courtesy to the 4D mailing list administrator   a) who has to deal with bounced messages generated from 7-bit wide mail systems b) who has increased overhead from subscribers with questions related to the use of 8-bit characters c) so that administrating the list does not become unwieldy   As I corresponded via private email with some of you, listening to French is music to my ears. I am a proponent of cultural diversity and global community, but we need to remember that we cannot always accomodate everyone.   Feel free to start another mailing list or even translate this one into several languages. Once you start maintaining one and the list reaches the size of this one, you'll definitely know what goes on behind the scenes and realize I must be crazy to devote my precious time "pro bono" to maintaining this list for over 3.5 years!   [Excerpt from the 4D Mailing List FAQ which is available at http://www.fsti.com/4d-nug/4d-mailing-list-faq.html]   * When composing email (this includes your mail headers and signatures), please make sure that you are using only the 7-bit US-ASCII character set. The US-ASCII character set means just character codes 0-127, i.e., no characters like bullets, curly quotes, em and en dashes, non-breaking spaces, and characters with diacritical marks. This will ensure that all recipients on this international mailing list will see your message as intended rather than having some of the mailers spewing out strange character sequences. Eudora users can do this by disabling quoted-printable encoding. Also, mail systems not capable of receiving 8-bit characters will cause messages to bounce back to me.   * When including 4D-specific code, here are some examples of suggested substitutes for non-ASCII characters:   - pointer reference symbol >> - IP diamond <> - character reference symbols _< and >_ - time expression daggers t - hard spaces that the procedure editor uses standard spaces for indenting     Now lets get back to 4D. Class dismissed.   - --Karen, 4D Mailing List Administrator, 4d-admin@fsti.com
Date: 16 May 1996 22:28:51 -0500 From: Alex Sten Poulsen <Alex@webrep.com> Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   >Messages to the 4D Mailing List should be in English only.   Karen,   I, too, have no objection to French, Spanish, German, Swedish, Italian, etc. as long as those who can will, when necessay, translate to and from English for those of us "diplomatically impaired." I quite enjoy trying to understand the messages; something akin to picking up a foreign newspaper, one gets the drift fairly quickly.   Alex
Date: 20 May 1996 08:21:00 -0500 From: pkussell@foxboro.com (Peter Kussell) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais?   Hi, Kevin:   If you don't mind a certain time delay, I'll be happy to help out in the translation to/from French...it'll help me brush up on the technical terms if the Francophone helps out with them as well...just forward the messages to me, or any questions about what you want to say and to whom it should be addressed.   Regards,   Peter Kussell pkussell@foxboro.com
Date: 17 May 1996 05:52:57 -0500 From: thauchard@dig.cie.fr Subject: Re: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   > Perhaps a compromise: If posters in French would refrain from using the > various special characters, Karen would not have to deal with bounced > messages.   There's an easy solution to avoid french special characters: use a special system keyboard file who translate transparently any of this special characters in standard character. I use it fine. :-)   - ----------------------------------------------- Thierry Hauchard DIG SARL France eMail : thauchard@dig.cie.fr
Date: 21 May 1996 05:10:39 -0500 From: gaue@nordnet.intlaurentides.qc.ca (Eric Gauthier) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais?   >Hi, Kevin: > >If you don't mind a certain time delay, I'll be happy to help out in the >translation to/from French...it'll help me brush up on the technical terms >if the Francophone helps out with them as well...just forward the messages >to me, or any questions about what you want to say and to whom it should be >addressed.   I too can help in the translation if needed. Altought i'm usually 24 hours late since i receive the digest version :-). Since i use the french version of 4d i'll be able to help with the technical terms.   regards,   =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+ Eric Gauthier CENOSIS INC gaue@intlaurentides.qc.ca EGauthier@cenosis.com =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+
Date: 21 May 1996 15:08:44 -0500 From: MMorrison@mail.asd.k12.ak.us (Max Morrison) Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais?   Eric Gauthier addeed... to Peter Kussell's statement...   >>If you don't mind a certain time delay, I'll be happy to help out in the >>translation to/from French...[snip]... > >I too can help in the translation if needed...[snip]...   Thanks to both of you; the most adaptive development yet to this morass. For myself, I would appreciate -- but certainly do not expect -- if and when possible, you format the translations such that monolingual readers can refer from source to object language. I'm not looking for free lessons per se; to paraphrase ancient and recent wisdom: if you give a woman a fish she'll eat for days. ...If you teach her how to fish she'll eat forever. Again, Thanks. .... max   ....My apology to anyone miffed by yet another tangential digression.
Date: 25 May 1996 14:43:05 -0500 From: krecke@santel.lu Subject: Re: Programmez-vous francais [PLEASE USE ENGLISH ONLY]   ACI has his own infoServer (ACI Online) and all informations are in french. It can be accessed by a special Kit provided by ACI.   Contact:Stephane Benhaim Administrateur d'ACI OnLine ACI http://WWW.ACI-4D.com   - -- \\\\///// / ^ ^ \ {| ~@#192#@~ |} __ \( ~ )/ __ { } \___/ { } -----o00o----------o00o-----   Marcel Krecke http://www.medinetlux.com krecke@santel.lu marcelkrecke@eworld.com (PLEASE DO NOT USE ANYMORE !! eWorld is dead!!) 100137,2240@compuserve.com


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